Comments on: Numbers and the Next Big Thing http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/ On Mac OS X programming Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:49:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Nicholas Riley http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-20632 Nicholas Riley Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:02:17 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-20632 After playing with Quantrix today and reading the comments here, I tried out Citrin (Aabel's demo isn't downloadable). There's a definite difference in feel between the two; Quantrix emphasizes direct manipulation of the metadata (axes/dimensions), whereas Citrin allows direct manipulation of the visible data, yet when you move into metadata, it shifts to buttons and switches everywher. For example, you can drag axes or items in a chart legend to reorder them in Quantrix, versus picking from lists in an inspector in Citrin. It looks like Aabel is much the same; take a look at this video for example: http://www.gigawiz.com/movie3r.html While it's admirably usable for a Java app, I wish Quantrix would adopt a few useful Mac OS X behaviors—the behavior of its pseudo-inspector ("Format Toolbox") is confusing, and the inability to copy/paste styles—or define templates at a granularity smaller than a document ("model")—are annoying when you want to analyze different instances of data in the same way. After playing with Quantrix today and reading the comments here, I tried out Citrin (Aabel’s demo isn’t downloadable). There’s a definite difference in feel between the two; Quantrix emphasizes direct manipulation of the metadata (axes/dimensions), whereas Citrin allows direct manipulation of the visible data, yet when you move into metadata, it shifts to buttons and switches everywher. For example, you can drag axes or items in a chart legend to reorder them in Quantrix, versus picking from lists in an inspector in Citrin. It looks like Aabel is much the same; take a look at this video for example:

http://www.gigawiz.com/movie3r.html

While it’s admirably usable for a Java app, I wish Quantrix would adopt a few useful Mac OS X behaviors—the behavior of its pseudo-inspector (”Format Toolbox”) is confusing, and the inability to copy/paste styles—or define templates at a granularity smaller than a document (”model”)—are annoying when you want to analyze different instances of data in the same way.

]]> By: rearden http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-14794 rearden Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:59:49 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-14794 Late to the comments, I am, but I was so impressed with the Apple Numbers app that I was re-inoculated with the multi-dim bug from the old days of using Lotus Improv. Of course, I 'fess up to actually liking Lotus Symphony in 1988 and being an actual, bona fide user of Lotus Agenda in 1990. Well, I searched the net; found a mint condition, never-opened version of Improv and bought it this afternoon. Now, if I can just find a PC with Win 98 running. That aside, we should probably lower our expectations for Numbers heading toward multi-dimensional modeling. Guys: the whole iWorks package sells for less than some of my son's video games. Late to the comments, I am, but I was so impressed with the Apple Numbers app that I was re-inoculated with the multi-dim bug from the old days of using Lotus Improv. Of course, I ‘fess up to actually liking Lotus Symphony in 1988 and being an actual, bona fide user of Lotus Agenda in 1990.

Well, I searched the net; found a mint condition, never-opened version of Improv and bought it this afternoon. Now, if I can just find a PC with Win 98 running.

That aside, we should probably lower our expectations for Numbers heading toward multi-dimensional modeling. Guys: the whole iWorks package sells for less than some of my son’s video games.

]]> By: vinu http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-6414 vinu Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:38:22 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-6414 Mac OS X also has a “simple” powerful one called Tables, http://www.x-tables.eu/more/overview.html . Mac OS X also has a “simple” powerful one called Tables, http://www.x-tables.eu/more/overview.html .

]]> By: Michael Z. http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4386 Michael Z. Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:55:57 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4386 Apple's market is MS Office switchers and AppleWorks refugees. At this time, numbers has to do exactly what 95% of Excel are already doing, only easier and better-looking. If the tables-in-panes interface becomes familiar to users, then perhaps an optional multidimensional back-end can be retrofitted in Numbers 2.0. Apple’s market is MS Office switchers and AppleWorks refugees. At this time, numbers has to do exactly what 95% of Excel are already doing, only easier and better-looking.

If the tables-in-panes interface becomes familiar to users, then perhaps an optional multidimensional back-end can be retrofitted in Numbers 2.0.

]]> By: Nat http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4383 Nat Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:53:30 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4383 Could someone elaborate on the difference between a multidimensional spreadsheet and a database? Could someone elaborate on the difference between a multidimensional spreadsheet and a database?

]]> By: mr_noodle http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4380 mr_noodle Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:15:15 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4380 Thanks for the heads up on Dabble DB. Hadn't heard of it before but judging from the demo video, I don't see much concerning the calculation engine. It seems more like a visualization tool for relational data. Aabel seems particularly oriented towards graphing series of data points but it's hard for me to tell from their site how close it is to multi-d spreadsheets. As for Apple adding it in the future, I don't think that would work. The paradigms are different enough yet they look superficially the same enough that having both in the same product would spell mass confusion. As scary as the whole multi-d thing sounds, when actually learning it as a total novice, I believe it to be more intuitive than the traditional model with the important caveat that the user has never been exposed to a spreadsheet before. I'm throwing out all this wordy analysis and the paradigm has been worked out rigorously to where it's almost like it's own math but users don't have to know any of that to use it. The problem is that once they pick up the Excel/traditional way, moving to multi-d is much, much harder. Basically, we have the odd situation of a product that works for both complete novices and hardcore users, but not the people in the middle. The current products shoot for the upper part since history has shown that there is uptake there. Question remains whether the product can be marketed towards the novice users but for now it seems that Apple is shooting for that creamy middle. Thanks for the heads up on Dabble DB. Hadn’t heard of it before but judging from the demo video, I don’t see much concerning the calculation engine. It seems more like a visualization tool for relational data.

Aabel seems particularly oriented towards graphing series of data points but it’s hard for me to tell from their site how close it is to multi-d spreadsheets.

As for Apple adding it in the future, I don’t think that would work. The paradigms are different enough yet they look superficially the same enough that having both in the same product would spell mass confusion. As scary as the whole multi-d thing sounds, when actually learning it as a total novice, I believe it to be more intuitive than the traditional model with the important caveat that the user has never been exposed to a spreadsheet before. I’m throwing out all this wordy analysis and the paradigm has been worked out rigorously to where it’s almost like it’s own math but users don’t have to know any of that to use it. The problem is that once they pick up the Excel/traditional way, moving to multi-d is much, much harder.

Basically, we have the odd situation of a product that works for both complete novices and hardcore users, but not the people in the middle. The current products shoot for the upper part since history has shown that there is uptake there. Question remains whether the product can be marketed towards the novice users but for now it seems that Apple is shooting for that creamy middle.

]]> By: Stefan http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4377 Stefan Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:16:23 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4377 I am currently using Aabel from Gigwiz (www.gigawiz.com) which is working exactly as you described and is a really optimized and polished application. The price is also hard to match. I am surprised that it is not more popular. I think that the target audience are mainly scientists, but the plots look really impressive, it builds on a real-time multidimensional structure and even features a database metaphor. It is Mac-only. I am currently using Aabel from Gigwiz (www.gigawiz.com) which is working exactly as you described and is a really optimized and polished application. The price is also hard to match. I am surprised that it is not more popular. I think that the target audience are mainly scientists, but the plots look really impressive, it builds on a real-time multidimensional structure and even features a database metaphor. It is Mac-only.

]]> By: Preston http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4375 Preston Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:30:30 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4375 Seems if Apple wanted to add this to Numbers in the future, they could add it as another object type in the overall layout space of the canvas. I agree that they probably wouldn't see the need. Cool approach though, I've not seen it explained before. Seems if Apple wanted to add this to Numbers in the future, they could add it as another object type in the overall layout space of the canvas. I agree that they probably wouldn’t see the need.

Cool approach though, I’ve not seen it explained before.

]]> By: Matt Chaput http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4369 Matt Chaput Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:54:53 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4369 That Quantrix site is hilariously square and corporate (about what you'd expect from people who thought Quantrix was a good name for something other than an heart-disease pill). Do even business people like wading through that stuff? Are they sitting there going, "This software will let me leverage my synergies? AWESOME!!!"? That Quantrix site is hilariously square and corporate (about what you’d expect from people who thought Quantrix was a good name for something other than an heart-disease pill).

Do even business people like wading through that stuff? Are they sitting there going, “This software will let me leverage my synergies? AWESOME!!!”?

]]> By: ikemstar http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4368 ikemstar Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:43:37 +0000 http://www.noodlesoft.com/blog/2007/08/15/numbers-and-the-next-big-thing/#comment-4368 Yep. DabbleDB is the way to go for us Improv-heads. It's written in Seaside/Smalltalk, and does the multi-dimensional paradigm as a web app. Would be nice to have it on the desktop, but I don't see it happening. And Apple are *not* going to go there. Yep. DabbleDB is the way to go for us Improv-heads. It’s written in Seaside/Smalltalk, and does the multi-dimensional paradigm as a web app. Would be nice to have it on the desktop, but I don’t see it happening. And Apple are *not* going to go there.

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